Agroecology Radio Hour
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Agroecology Radio Hour
Episode 7 - Rocking Chair Farm: A non-family intergenerational farming and succession model
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In this episode of the Agroecology Radio Hour, host Lucy Ridge talks with John Monaghan and Alan Smith from Rocking Chair Farm in the Hunter Valley (Wonnarua country) about how chance meetings, shared meals, and big conversations grew into an intergenerational farming partnership. John and Alan farm angus beef, Australian white lamb, chooks, hops, and veggies on 800 acres and sell direct to the public.
They unpack their journeys from diverse past careers to farming and then from conventional production to holistic, regenerative decision-making, and dive deep into their unusual succession and land-share arrangement that has been built on trust and relationships. Along the way they explore the real costs and legal complexity of doing succession differently, the value of involving partners and community, and why selling direct to customers has helped them build both profitability and stronger relationships. The conversation ripples outward into local food sovereignty in action, from field days to a micro-abattoir co-op and on-farm events.
AFSA: https://afsa.org.au/
Rocking Chair Farm: https://www.rockingchairfarm.com.au/
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Episode 1
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618And I think, I had to come to a thing where I said, stuff it, this is, this is more important than, then just, something that I have to protect. It's something we have to build. And if we are gonna build, then there's gonna be trust. And, so I went and said, righto, what's the next step? How do we do this differently?
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-31-2025_081145Welcome to another episode of the Agroecology Radio Hour, your monthly podcast that explores the issues of food sovereignty in the Australian landscape. your host, Lucy Ridge, speaking to you from the unseated lands of the Nawal and Nare We have been known for 15 years as the Australian Food Sovereignty Alliance, but at our recent convergence, we collectively decided to change this to the Agroecology and Food Sovereignty Alliance, maintaining our acronym without the acrimony of its Colonial namesake. This is just one of the ways in which AFSA is committed to continuing our decolonial work and political formation. Last year, we transitioned away from hierarchical terms such as president in our committee structure instead appointing focal points. Another recent decision is to open up SSA's Decolonial Circle to all members to deepen decolonial work in political formation to address fascism and racism. We also committed to publicly positioning SSA's, anti-fascist promi stance and name the risks of right wing co-optation in food system spaces. We will keep working to transform community gardens, libraries, and food hubs into safe, anti-fascist. Third places where belonging and resistance can grow together.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618In our last episode, we spoke to Chris Smidge about small farms, local food economies, and the importance of positive storytelling. This month we're speaking with Alan Smith and John Monaghan of Rocking Chair Farm, which is a diverse regenerative farm in the Hunter Valley region that produces Angus beef, Australian white lamb, chooks, hops, and veggies, and they sell directly to customers in their region and beyond. Rocking Chair Farm was formed over many evening beers, wines, and delicious dinners by Alan and John with the concept of creating a place where John could find a new way of farming for the future, and Alan could test and trial the methods of regenerative agriculture he learned in college Rocking Chair Farm is particularly unique in the structures that John and Alan have developed in relation to the succession planning of the property. And we'll get into the details of that later in this episode. but let me introduce and welcome, uh, John and Alan.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618Hi, how are you?
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Hi. Um, first of all, I wondered if you could just share a little bit about where you are. We always sort of like to start things off by grounding ourselves in the place where our guests are. So I wondered if Yeah, you could maybe introduce yourselves one by one so everyone can hear what your voices sound like independently, and tell us a little bit about where you are right now and what's happening on country there.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618I'm John Mongan. I, uh, bought, these properties, about 25 years ago. I grew up on a dairy farm in Nara, um, and. then worked for 41 years in the steel industry, uh, taking on a lot of senior management roles, uh, through the steel industry. I was managing, uh, Newcastle Steel, uh, steel making facility when the facility was closed, in 99. And, uh, part of that process is I was supposed to get a package and leave. my wife and I decided to, go farming. at that time. And then, uh, the steelworks offered me a job running the mills, so I stayed, stayed in, in the steelworks, but uh, my wife Diane and I decided to buy US property in the Dongo region, and that's where we started our farming journey for the second time.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Excellent. Yeah. And, uh, and Alan, uh, if you could tell us maybe a little bit about your background and, uh, and also where you are right now.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah. So, um, we're recording this from our little cottage in, um, marshal, just outside of Dongo. Um, basically on acres here that me and John jointly own. Um, as you've said, we're. Cattle and sheep here. but it's all about diversity of what we're, uh, wanting to do with the farm and develop that over the years that we're working here. I come from, strangely, a furniture design background, but um, also have worked in restaurants my life. So, um, basically I came to, um, farming through, uh, working in. Increasing increasingly more challenging restaurants and, sort of high fine dining, which led me to sort of see the importance of the quality of the produce that we, um, we eat. and all the ethics and all of the hard work that goes into that. so that basically gave me an interest in how we grow our food. And the best way I found for, uh. Learning more about that was to do it myself.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah, that's so interesting. I'm also a chef, so I also come from that
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618and food culture background, and that's really what led me into food sovereignty and agroecology as well. Um, but I guess John, you were, even though you grew up on a dairy farm, your career was not in farming. So I wondered, how your early career has sort of shaped the way you think about farming and the practices that you, that you use now. Can you see any sort of direct lines that were linking you from then till now?
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618I, I've got a scientific background. I'm a metallurgist by trade. Um, but most of my work in the steelworks was in a senior management type roles, um, running, uh, very big businesses. when I first bought the farm, uh, I. Uh, very much was go and seek information, seek seek advice. Um, and then, and most of that came from agronomists and stuff who happened also to be selling a lot of product. I think what, what I learned over those the next, 15 years is I, I learned how to grow very good beef, but. Not make any money because it basically, I was spending all my, all the profits from the beef sales back into developing the land. And I, I don't think, uh, I really developed the land. I just think I, uh, took shortcuts to grow grass. so I initially bought one property in, 99 and I, I was still working in the steelworks, and then I decided I, I could manage that first property. And so I, uh, and still works. So I thought if I'm gonna retire on farming, I need another one. So I bought a second property, um, which is the master property, which we're now on. the.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618you sort of first started farming, you were using more sort of conventional farming practices. What was, what was the inspiration to step more towards regenerative agriculture? What and, and what did that sort of process look like on the ground?
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618basically Alan, when Alan, came over from England and, uh, part of his journey was that he, he was on a backpacker, visa. And he needed to, um, get three months of, uh, work in, in the bush. So we arranged for him to get a job in Dongo, and he moved into our place for, uh, supposedly two weeks and stayed nine months.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618Um, and basically we, uh, had lots of conversations about the farm and the, the things over a, as you said earlier, a number of beers and good wine and good food. Um, the beauty was my wife's a very good cook. And Al's got a sort of chef background, so I dunno if you remember the program, the Cook and the Chef. Uh,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618well. Yes.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618yeah. So that's the sort of deal that we had. So we had great meals and uh, lots of conversations. so those conversations were around, yeah. farming's great, but doesn't earn money. Um, and if we're going to have it as an ongoing business and an ongoing thing that we can pass on, we've gotta think about how we, can turn that into a profitable business. so Al and I had lots of conversations about how we farm, how that, and how the work he was doing in permaculture and other areas. And the work he'd done in market gardening, so that. stimulated a lot of questions on a lot of discussions, and then I started doing some reading and then we started doing some experiments on the farm over here.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah. So I guess Alan, how did you approach that process of, of coming into a new farming situation and, and really wanting to put into practice some of those things you'd been thinking about?
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618Well, it was more, um, I dunno, I've always. I've been inquisitive, um, with other people and other environments and situations. I, I like asking questions. Um, and I was growing vegetables for a restaurant in the uk. That was my job. And I didn't really have a huge amount of knowledge about regenerative agriculture. Um, we were kind of growing produce. In view of the window of the restaurant. So a lot of the practices and a lot of the chemical usage and things like that wasn't very much anyway'cause we were in view So, I've always sort of had that in mind. But the actual practicality of regen ag and more responsible agriculture wasn't really on my radar until basically. Someone dropped out of a, um, a course in holistic management, and I got asked if I wanted to fill that spot. So I ended up doing a holistic management course, um, with Brian Wedberg and um, basically got lots of literature and lots of books that came outta that that I'd be reading and. Trying to basically take John's farming knowledge and question why this would work or why this wouldn't work. And we kind of went from conversations saying, no, that'll never work. That's it can't work. If nothing's going in, it's not, we can't get anything out. Or if we're not taking everything out, how are we gonna do that to Then basically five or six books later that we both read, we're kind of going, well, maybe we. Maybe we should just give it a go. So that's how we kind of came to start doing. A little bit farming together basically.'cause I was doing it on another property and, um, in a different style. But, um, basically we just started having really good conversations around agriculture and I was trying to learn a bit more about cattle farming and, what goes into it and, um, what the processes are and the times of year and all of the, you know, how it fits and, um. Yeah, it was great to have somebody there to sort of ask questions of and learn a lot from really.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618What I love about your story so much is. There was a lot of chance involved, you know, the chance of, uh, of someone dropping out of a course, the chance of, you know, going on your, um, your regional, uh, placement for your visa, you know, and meeting each other, but taking those sort of chance opportunities and really, really running with them and creating something intentional with them. that's fabulous. Um, so we really wanted to, uh, get quite in depth about the, uh. Um, the land share agreement that the two of you have. because farm succession planning right, can be a really tough process. And in situations where landholders don't have family members or other people that can take over, guess, yeah, the, the other option is to turn to other people in your community. Um, and was this something that you'd been thinking about for a while, John? Like were you, were you, did you, did you have it in the back of your head that you needed somebody to be able to pass, pass things down to.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618Um, bit of history. Um, the farm I grew up on was an original land grant. Um, so it had been in our family, uh, for five generations. Hm. my father, it had come down through the family. Uh, my father owned a quarter of it. His brother owned a quarter. And the other thing, and my piece of that farm, if on my father's death, was going to be a half of his quarter, so an eighth. So it, in 1982, my father and I decided we'd buy everyone else out and, and we'd buy the farm together as and as a partnership. The problem in that time is we did a lot of, a lot of work on what the business was worth, and the business was worth about$300,000 at that stage, but the property was worth a million dollars. what then happened is, uh, my. Uh, my father got sick and then the property was gonna be sold up, and I sat and watched my father cry as all his cattle and the, the years of work he put into the farm disappeared. Um, so then, uh, when I decided to go farming, I, I've got two children, uh, I've got a daughter. who now lives in London, uh, and has a high powered computer, job and, and is doing very, very well for self. Um, I have a, a son, with severe disabilities. He lives in the group home in Newcastle. part of where I've been going is I've been thinking about, I'm, I'm creating this. Farm and this, and putting lots of effort into it and making it grow. But I've got nowhere. At some point I'm gonna have to sell it. And, uh, I didn't because my daughter had grown a long way away from the farm and didn't want to come back as a farmer wants to, wanted, kept us in the family because she loves visiting it, but didn't wanna work it. Um, so when Alan moved in and we had all these conversations. started thinking, well, there is some opportunity here. So I had conversations with my wife and my daughter, and actually my daughter very much encouraged me to, uh, to go down the path we're going. Um, basically because I always keep saying that, uh, you can take me off the farm in the box. I don't want to leave any other way. and as Al and I were talking, uh, and talking about, going into regenerative farming, um, very clearly I became, aware that that's a 30 year journey,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618uh, at least. And at that stage, I was mid, mid sixties, so if I was gonna go on a 30 year journey, I needed someone to help me do it.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618And, uh, so then we al and I started talking about how, how that could happen.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618So Alan, I guess could you, could you give us a bit of an idea, what does the land share agreement look like and, and what was the process of sort of developing that and, and working out what it was gonna be?
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618yeah, so it took a bit of time to work out what we were gonna do. Um, basically we started off. Muddling through how it could work, um, with us having, um, shared ownership, but more in the case of working together. So it was more a case of starting a business together to start with, and me having within the, um, day-to-day workings of the farm. Um, and basically decision making between the two of us, um, which was quite nice'cause we got to sort of. Bounce ideas off each other, try some things, get some things wrong, see some, um, see some things go right as well. Um, and that sort of developed through. But the difficulty with all of this from, you know, my point of view going into these kind of, these kind of agreement, it was quite a big deal'cause I was, you know, early thirties. Um, this is my kind of time that. My career in or career in, um, whatever I was wanting to do, um, was gonna be developing and, um, really moving forward. So sort of taking a leap to basically start your own business, but that's an already existing business, meant that we were. Uh, taking a bit of a leap with it all really. And, um, getting the opportunity to be part of something that had been around for 20 years with a fantastic set of cattle and things like that, and this herd that's been developed, which, you know, so many people buying property, um, don't have the luxury of having. So I was very lucky to have that, but it was still quite a sort of scary idea of doing something that I'd not really done before. You know, I'd not. Spent a lot of time around cattle. I hadn't spent a lot of time hus, the husbandry element of farming it's vegetables was what I'd kind of spent a bit of time doing, which reacts slightly differently. Um, so
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618likely to get trampled by a carrot if you do it wrong.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618exactly. So, uh, yeah, it was a bit of a scary sort of jump being involved in that business and sort of, um. Going all in with it. Really? Yeah. So initially, initially the business, the, the deal we did was that we, we all the, um, non-fixed assets, so the, um, not the land, but the, um, all the machinery, uh, as were put into the business, which we call rocking chair farm. And then we shared the, the profits of that 50 50. So, uh, that was the thing. And then, as I, I always thought that Al needed some other skin in the game as well. So part of where we talked about as, um, al having some, long term, uh. Let me get the words right, some long-term, benefit by able to get the, some of the fixed assets. Um, and that was half of the Dale property, so I owned two properties. So, uh. the, the deal we have is in the mar star property, where I live at home is a, is is separate, although it's the cattle and the machinery and stuff. There is part of the rocking chair power business, but the, the agreement on sharing property is just their marsh style property.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Okay. that's really interesting. And how do you, so how do you manage sort of the trust that's required
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618Um,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618you know, to sort of put together a deal that's gonna last decades or unfold over a really long time?
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618when I, when I first, when we first started talking about this, I, I went and got some legal advice and commercial advice and they all told me I was crazy.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah. Wow.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618don't do it. Um, they could come up with scenarios where, um, all these scenarios where it wouldn't work. So where we went to initially is that I put in my will that al on my death, Al would get half or I was leaving the farm. Al would get half the farm. Um, and that was the, how it worked for the first two years. Yeah. And it was, it was very interesting to, um, have this agreement because, I mean, from my point of view, I'm in a very privileged position to be able to have the agreement that I've got here.'cause I know how difficult it is for people to get on land and, um, it was a really interesting process. And it wasn't just a case of me and John trusting each other. some of the scenarios that we could like be going into when we were looking at the agreements were amazing and a lot of the protections we had to put in place, we, we were looking at this weren't for me and John. They were for my partner or on, you know, something happens to me, it then becomes. A battle with these things, and you read about a lot of stories of inheritance and all of these elements and just how messy it does get. So we had to be really patient with how we worked out the process of this whole agreement. Yeah, so most of the kick the, from the legal point of view, the, the pushback I was getting from my solicitors was they don't, didn't see a problem between Alan and I. They saw if something happened to Alan, then a third party becomes and they could force the sale. Because they had no, no, bondage to the farm. So they want, all they want is their money, so they forced the sale. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then I lose what I've been trying to build. So it became very complex when we started looking at how it actually looked. it was, it was, it's still fascinating to try and explain or, um, speak to people. Um, that I know around town, understandably, most people still think or think that I work for John. cause it's just the accepted way that, um, things happen in agriculture. You have an older farmer and somebody who's working for them and, um, learning the, learning the ropes. Um, and when I've explained it to a few people, they think John's completely crazy and don't really understand why he'd want to. To give away the financial asset. And I think that's the interesting bit for me is seeing farms not just as a financial asset, um, but seeing it as, um, a legacy and something that is actually a working, breeding, functioning thing.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah. Has this arrangement kind of changed the way that the two of you think about that concept of ownership and of owning land?
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah, it's basically, a as we were saying, uh, for about two years, we had the agreement that it would sit in my will. And that, uh, Alan, we get that. I think where, I, I sensed al getting frustrated that he didn't have that vesti share in the, in in the, in, although there was the promise of something. There was no give or something. And there, and I, saw Al becoming restless and, and, and stuff about that. And I think, I had to come to a thing where I said, stuff it, this is, this is more important than, then just, something that I have to protect. It's something we have to build. And if we are gonna build, then there's gonna be trust. And, so I went and said, righto, what's the next step? How do we do this differently? and I suppose we took a cautious, I took a more cautious way. One of the ways was to just say, right, Al here's half the farm. Uh, what we decided to do was that I would. Gift al 5% of the farm per year for the next 10 years. And, um, that has, um, that means that Al gets there. We, we continue to work together. It's on the condition that we still working and, um, together and still, still as a functioning. Rocking chair, farm business, and all of those things are going, and then we invest 5% per year.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah, that's a really interesting way of doing it. Um, and and is that, is that working for you now? Do you think that's, that's gonna be the model moving forward or is it still
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618well it's, this is the three years, uh, we've just vested the third, third piece. So the end of each financial year, al gets a new 5%.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yep.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618Um, and it's, uh, so there's, there's, um, mainly positives with that one obviously. But, um, a few considerations that we have found through doing it are things like, um, stamp duty, for example. So we, it's basically like buying a small property every year. Um. So we, we sort of get that, hit every year. That's just a part of the deal that we've done. Um, and solicitors, solicitors and lawyers have kind of suggested that that's just one of those things with the way that we've formatted that. So there's, there's, there was a couple of ways that we looked at doing it. Um, but this was the, the best overall. Just for that staging element. I think it's a really good thing for, um, not minimizing risk, but kind of for John having that 5%. And then the longer the, the longer the relationship goes on, the sort of more solid and more equal it becomes in that on the, on that business.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Hmm. That's great. And we spoke a little bit about, um, your partners and how they are also sort of, uh, I guess, involved in this, in this relationship. So, uh, Alan's partner, Lucy is the on-call, uh, veterinarian and Animal Health advisor, uh, chief Heifer Selector I see here. And, uh. John's wife, Diane is the manager of accounts and meetings and morning teas. So how important is it to have your, your significant others involved in the farm and, and having that community around you when you are, when you are farming?
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618I think extremely. Um,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Mm.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618the, the we, we do basically do a yearly business plan and, and those sort of things where everyone's involved, um, decisions. We, it's important that the better halves, uh, uh, are involved in that as well because, you know, the. Part of, uh, the, the outcomes of those decisions, the, they, the beneficiaries or the, or the other way. If we make poor decisions, then we have less, less funds to, to work with. uh, as you were saying, both Diane and and Lucy contribute greatly to the, to the farm. They're not doing, uh, much of the physical work and those sort of things, but they're doing also. Uh, not a, uh, they give, they're doing their own specialties, but they also give a lot of moral support. I found it really important to have Lucy around for most of the farm, um, involvements and decisions, basically because she's disconnected from it. Um, she's very much involved and she does, you know, a lot of work, um, with the sheep, with the cattle, with all of things, and she loves doing it. But also, you know, with all businesses there's disagreements and, um, me and John will have different ways of looking at something. what I find Lucy does fantastically well is, um, be there so that she can help me structure a way of best. Putting my opinion across to John, or she very much works in that middle space, um, as a level sensible head as so often women do. Yeah. Yeah,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618offering a bit of objectivity.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah. Um, so one of, one of the traits I have is even in business, I, I pick people to work with who are very much my opposite. And Al uh, uh, Al and I are are quite opposite in, in the way we think and the way we, we, we do things. I'm, I'm a driver. I, I just get in and do stuff and I, although I'm very scientific in the way I want to do stuff and, and how I set things out once I've made my mind up, I just do it. Um, where Alan is, uh, very planned, very considered in, in the way. So sometimes we clash over that and, and, and, uh, have a mediator. It's not, not mediators, but, uh, allow us to go and sit back and think about those things is, is important. And I think we come out with good solutions from that as well. Yeah.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618So it's gotta be a strong relationship in that sense of, um, working with people every day. It's very much one of those, it takes time to develop these kind of businesses and work out where you want to be. Um. What the outcomes are as well. And that's why things like the business planning and things like that are so important because we're very clear about what we want the outcomes to be, whether that be financial or whether that be, um, what we wanna get out of the, the herd or what kind of traits we're looking for, what we wanna develop, what pasture we, what we want the pasture to look like in five years time. Um, all of those elements. Uh, decisions that we have to make together, we have very different ideas or very different, um, experience on how we get to that point. um, so taking the time to have conversations and listen to each other is definitely something that we've, um, we've both developed, I think over the time that we've been doing the farm. And, and I I think having some of those opposing views is really good because it actually forces you to think deeply about what you are trying to do and how you, and how to, how that outcome is thing. So, so yeah, that's been an important to us. Just going back a little bit when we talked a bit about the, um. The farm and the, the transfer of the farm, uh, yeah, it, it's quite expensive. It, it, it's cost, it costs us about two and a half thousand dollars a year for, we have to get the farm valued every year for debt duty purposes.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Mm-hmm.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618we have solicitors fees, which are again, a about two and a half. and then we have stamp duty, which is again, um, Bought three grand, Something around that. So it's, it's not a cheap exercise. We split, we actually take that out of the farm we use, so normally that would be, um, our, our would pay the stamp duty. But our agreement is we, we share all that
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618That's, um. I think that's really important to note, like the system that we're in doesn't make this kind of arrangement easy, you know? And I wonder, do you have any, um, other advice that you would give to other landholders or other farmers who are considering a similar kind of agreement? Are there any sort of lessons that you learned or pitfalls to avoid?
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618I think you've gotta know your person, who you're doing gonna do this. And have spent enough time to gain enough confidence that you are, that this isn't gonna fall to bits in, in 12 months time. It's, it's, it's, you, you really do need to have that considerate long-term consideration. Um, you've also gotta be, you need your family on side. especially my daughter. Um, and she actually strongly encouraged this. Because in a way, I, I'm giving away a very significant portion of her inheritance.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618So, um, this property's worth about two and a half million dollars. So it's a significant proportion, but my daughter, uh, is very comfortable with that because it allows, um. The farm developed, she actually thinks that she'll be better off long term because there will develop a better business, which ultimately creates value. And I think that's something you've gotta think about too. It's it's not static. If you just think about what's the value now, then, then you're giving something away. But if you think you're building something. That is gonna be bigger and better, then you are actually not giving away something. You are actually building something
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah, and as you said, it was, you know, you're going on a 30 year journey, so you gotta think about.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618Absolutely.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618it gonna look like in 30 years?
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah. And so a lot of our thinking and a lot of our, um, talks are not about just how to run the farm, but how to. How do we take a product and, and enhance that and how do we, how do we do things differently so that we can create income in the future? You agree with that? Yeah, absolutely.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618I think one of the, the big things is really taking your time with, um, doing these kind of agreements. I think, um. It's really important that John's so actively involved in what's going on the farm. And it's not just a case of I'm there to put fences in or do the manual labor elements and John's sitting back, you know, um, it's almost the opposite most of the time here. And, um, I think a lot of the, the key to our agreement and our relationship is the fact that. It's constantly giving John something to drive forward to and giving him that purpose on the day. Um, and to see him sort of get his teeth into those things is fantastic. So, um, it's taking your time with things, but really picking and having people involved, um, that have the same sort of passion. Although me and John have a very different, um, approach. To the day-to-day workings. You know, I work. I still work in restaurants, so I still, I'm very much not getting home until one in the morning. And then like the idea of going and looking around the farm and doing things and then getting into things. Once I've got going, John is getting going. He's been up since the time I got home, so we, we are very much, yeah, the opposite ends of the spectrum. I think we both sort of feel that there's a place for that in modern farming. There's different ways of doing things and you can't get caught in the trap of trying to be someone that you're not or trying to replicate and keep other people happy. You've got to be able to keep yourself happy and, um, be true to that as well. And, and just give each other, understand where each other's at, and give each other space
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah,
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618a bit to do those things. So, um, I think that works for us as well. Um.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Um, something else that we just wanted to touch on, um, was the fact that you are selling directly to customers. Um, and we just wondered, you know, how that decision was made and what that transition looked like, and, and what are the benefits for you? Selling directly to customers rather than, you know, having wholesale or, or any of that.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618So there's, ah, there's, there's multiple elements to it. So, um, from the beginning of it, the obvious one is financial. Um, because we are controlling our market, if we're selling direct to customers, we're not selling through sale yards that traditionally. Farms do in this region. Um, and we, if prices fluctuate on our costs, we can, we can adjust that. I really think having the control over how much a product can be solved for is really important for, um, small farms especially to keep it viable. Um, we need to keep this a, a sustainable business financially. Um, on the point of, um. Process. So butchers and abattoirs and all of those elements, um, have been a really big journey for me in understanding that process and the flaws in that process. Mm-hmm. Um, that are limiting to why people. sell direct to customer as much. it's yeah, really crazy that a system that's been around for so long in an industry that relies upon it can end up in the mess that it's in. this has led. John to drive and develop, um, a micro abattoir project in our area. And all of these offshoots of us working together on the farm have come from these kind of conversations and the problems that have arose, arisen from us doing this direct to customer. And then the, for me, the most important bit is the connection between the people eating our food Um, us supplying it to them. Um, I found working in restaurants that the best thing about being able to grow, grow the produce and then serve it to the customer is the fact that I can tell you where I picked that from and the, the look on their face when they've had something that's been out the ground 20 minutes. And it is the theater of that. It is the. The surprise that they're having something that's fresh, and B, you're being served it by somebody who actually grew. It is just so great for the customer in their understanding and appreciation of what they're eating. And we Same for, same for animal beef? Yeah. So it's the same for, same for our product here. So we are wanting to basically have our customer be able to come to the farm before they buy our meat or have a connection in some way by knowing us, by meeting us, ask questions about where the foods come from, how it's been grown, what we're doing on the land, and we can, we believe we can make a sustainable business by providing. Food to a group of people that is small enough that I can have, or we can have a personal relationship with the people that we are providing food to. And I think that that's really, really important. So we don't do online as much. We don't do big kind of push where we're gonna ship meat out to you in other parts of the country. we. Kind of want to keep it local so we can actually provide meat directly where we deliver it. And I feel like there's enough market in our local community, um, to be able to service that for multiple parts of our business, whether it be lamb, beef, whether we are selling eggs, whether we're selling, um, you know, any products that we can, uh, make and develop over the years on this farm.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618What I love is just speaking to you. You know, so much of your story is about relationships, right? It's relationships with each other. It's relationships with the customers, and then building that relationship with the land as well, which I think is, uh, is really, really incredible.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618and for me, I suppose the off, one of the huge offshoots and advantages for me out of this partnership with Alan has been. we've become part of the regenerative farming community in, in the, in the district, and that has led to, building a lot of, lot of relationships with people. Five years ago, I'd never knew. Five or six years. So the people, the circle of friends and the people we associate with now has changed quite dramatically. the intellectual stimulation from that and being involved in those other things has been absolutely tremendous. And that. Then we talked a bit about the abattoir in which we, uh, I've been leading, uh, for the last three years. that part of our, our thinking was, you know, we wanted to sell to, customers and understand and know them. Then we, then, my thinking was then we need certainty about how that process was and becoming harder and harder. Um, to get butchers to do it, get, uh, TIRs to kill when we want and how we want. Um, so that's why I, I started that thing and if we're gonna have this profitable farm, and Al and Lucy and myself and the kids are gonna get a, a, a, an income out of it, then we've gotta build security around how we do that.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618of the things, the big missing piece to me was the abattoir
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Mm-hmm.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618the service shop, service butchery that goes with that. So then we started talking to people about that and how, how we could do that. And that's now progressed that we've, we've actually formed the co-op. We've got 25 members. We were aiming for a total of 50. We're still two years away. Uh, we've got someone's going to build the abattoir. We are in the process of getting a DA approved to do that. So that, that to me has been a great outcome. Um, but also also help to build, again, to build a community. and just one other thing we've done, we've, we, tomorrow we're holding our fourth field day on this property, uh, in the last couple of years. And that's where we're showcasing what we're doing and trying to get people, more people involved in trying to influence, um, people around here in a positive way.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah. That's excellent. That's that. That's food sovereignty in action, isn't it? Just, yeah. Getting that community involved and re localizing all of those, you know.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618the local community has been really, um, it's one of the big passions for me for, um, the success of the farm, um, obviously is to, you know, be able to create a sustainable business, to be able to grow grass and make this into a, a place to be. You know, beautiful for, um, ourselves and for all the things that live on it, but also having that connection to the community as well. So it's allowed me to start, an organization called Thrive, that has also had its first um, year that has been basically focused on the people of agriculture. So we're holding events throughout the year that are basically focusing on the human element of agriculture and how that looks. and it was amazing to see some of the, the most, the strongest, um, feedback that we got from it were around, um, a talk around mental health, which is something that you wouldn't expect from a farming festival. Um, it. Was really fantastic to see some of the older farmers, some of the more conventional guys that had come along. Um, actually be really impressed by some of the talks that were traditionally a little softer and a little bit more about people and feelings and things like that, that usually, um, are shied away from. And it's more about grasses and capital numbers and weights, and it was really good to see. Um, the community get involved and embrace some talking about things that are human-centric, and how important agriculture is to this community and lots of communities, um, in regional Australia still, and need to be more important.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Yeah. Well, it's been really wonderful chatting with you both and learning about, you know, not only your own journey in, in coming together on rocking Chair Farm, but also the, the ripples that have sort of spread from that relationship into the broader community. It's been really fantastic. Thank you both very much.
alan-and-john_1_10-08-2025_140618Great. And look, if people wanna contact us and talk, talk further, they're more than welcome.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_140618Thank you for listening to this episode of the Agroecology Radio Hour. If you'd like to support AAA's work, please head to our website, a sa.org au, where you can become a member or follow on social media. You can also sign up as a subscriber to this podcast on buy me a coffee.com and contact us via our email address, Australian food sovereignty@gmail.com. Thanks to our producer Ivan Blackett and our guests, Alan Smith and John Monaghan of Rocking Chair Farm, and as they said, they're very happy to be contacted. We'll put relevant links in the show notes if you'd like to know more about their work. Of course, please share this podcast with your networks to help grow the food sovereignty movement in Australia and beyond.