Agroecology Radio Hour
Talking all things agroecology
Agroecology Radio Hour
Episode 6 - Chris Smaje
In this months episode we chat with Chris Smaje; he is an aspiring woodsman, stockman, gardener, and peasant in Somerset, southwest England. Chris is also an author who writes urgently about the need for a small farm future, making the case for organising communities around small scale local agroecological farming in order to meet both the environmental and political challenges of our times.
Chris is the author "Saying NO to a Farm-Free Future" and "A Small Farm Future".
Chris has just finished a new book "Finding Lights in a Dark Age: Sharing Land, Work and Craft". It will be released on the 11th of November 2025. It can be pre-ordered here.
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Chris Smaje: https://chrissmaje.com/
And I kind of play with the Dark Age idea in the sense that, know, what's come down to us about previous dark ages in history is that, oh, you know, they were terrible. You know, civilization fell apart. But for a lot of ordinary people, they were actually, um, pretty good time. You know, because the, the, the, you know, when the Romans left Britain, the evidence seems to suggest that nutrition was better. You know, people were better off and healthier because they weren't being essentially screwed by a predatory colonial elite,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Welcome to the Australian Agroecology Radio Hour, your monthly podcast that explores the issues of food sovereignty in the Australian landscape. your host, Lucy Ridge, speaking to you from the unseated lands of the Nawal and Nare peoples. Today's guest is Chris Sm aspiring woodsman, Stockman, gardener, and peasant in Somerset, southwest England. Chris is also an author who writes urgently about the need for a small farm future, making the case for organizing communities around small scale local agroecological farming, in order to meet both the environmental and political challenges of our times. Chris.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Hi. Yeah, thanks. Good to be here.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Thanks so much for joining us today. Um, the first thing that we often like to ask our guests is just, uh, ask them to tell us a little bit about what it's like, where they are right now. So what country's telling you what the weather's like, you know, what's happening on the farm in the environment.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Right. Well, yeah, it's been very hot and dry here by British standards. Probably not by Australian standards maybe, but yeah, the grass is, uh, kind of withered and yellow. So, and, um, uh, you, you know, a couple of things going on here. We've got a little market garden, um, growing vegetables that we sell locally. So, uh, a lot of irrigation has been needed and we just keep livestock on a very small scale. Got a, got a couple of sheep, couple of breeding used, so the grass is looking a bit thin for them. So, um, we had a bit of rain, but not enough. And the sky is beautiful blue today. So, um, is, you know, which is nice from a sort of a recreational point of view, but not so great from an agrarian point of view at the minute.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah, absolutely. well, thank you for that. I think we've, we've got the picture now. I'm, I'm definitely, uh, in a very cold part of the world right now. So a, uh, a nice sunny sky. Sounds pretty good to me. Uh, so for listeners who aren't familiar with you or your work, um, I wonder if you could just give us a very brief overview of who you are, what you do, and how you got there.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Right. Well, I'm in, in Somerset, southwest England, about a hundred miles west of London. I've, um, my background maybe how I got there is the way to get into this. I was um, an academic social scientist, um, university based, guess I, originally studied anthropology and sort of got interested in peasant farming and the way that the small scale farmers of the world sort of were or weren't, integrated within larger state systems or, you know, were oppressed or otherwise by it. But I didn't actually know anything about or growing at that point. It was kind of a, a sort of intellectual interest. Um, and then, uh, yeah, I did a bunch of other things. Fast forward 10 years or so, I, I kind of jacked in the academic job and, and started, um, uh, you know, actually running a small market garden that sort of. me to, you know, obviously very different in a sort of relatively privileged western setting, but, you know, kind of brought me face to face with some of those issues about, um, food production and, and, and how you sort of get by within the larger economy. So I did that for a number of years, you know, hard to make it work economically. We've sort of messed around and tried different models with that over the years, but that kind of drew me back into thinking and writing about, um, you know, how this sort of fits into the bigger structures of the world. And then particularly in the context of, of political, economic and environmental crisis, you know, what are the, what are the big forces, um, acting on us in the world that, you know, in my view are gonna push us, uh, whether we like it or not, down this route towards, um. local res, you know, the need for more local resilience, the need for local production. So, you know, I've written, just finished writing another book that's not, hasn't yet been published. It's out in a few months. So sort of basically three books in the last few years that have tried to sort of wrestle with different aspects of that. Yeah. So, um, that, that's my various hats.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:That's so great. I love that you started out in the academic world and now you've sort of almost found your way back there full circle, but perhaps with a little more dirt under your fingernails.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Yeah, absolutely.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:And I guess the trajectory of the three books, the first one was sort of, um, kind of quasi-academic. I mean, they've all got lots of references and all that kind of stuff, but, you know, increasingly I've tried to get away from that style of writing. The new book even
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Mm
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:of fiction in it, so
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Oh, very exciting. so I know that a lot of the work that you've done in your books has been sort of debunking the, um, the theories and myths that, uh, technologically driven futuristic farming is, is the thing that's gonna save us. one of the biggest technological advances people are talking about at the moment is ai, and especially in a regenerative agricultural space in Australia. you know, we're hearing people talking about using AI in a farming context and how it's a sort of a useful tool, but how do you, how do you feel about that and how would you sort of go about thinking about how do we, how do we take these technologies and are they useful to us or do we need to be looking at moving away from them?
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Yeah. Interesting. I, I haven't thought an awful lot about ai. Uh, I suppose my perspective. Is, uh, certainly in the, in the latest book is really that these are kind of high energy, high tech technologies that are sort of part of the, um, world that we will be leaving behind. But you know, that it's either that or that that's part of the world that's gonna destroy us. You know, there's kind of, there's different ways that this, this, this can go. but uh, but it's gonna be uneven, you know, I mean, part of my analysis is about sort of periphery and centers. So, you know, AI is very much sort of, although it's a useful tool for many people, you know, it's still very much dominated by the sort of monopoly holders of the, the platform dominated by the center. And I think, you know, increasingly is being used to sort of control and co-opt people. So probably slightly lazy assumption has been that, you know, that's all part of, of, of, of the kind of old, um, old world of, of, of centralized sort of high tech capitalist politics that ultimately, um, uh, you know, needs to be transcended. But nevertheless, you know, I acknowledge that people use it. I mean, obviously we're talking here through this sort of very high tech, modern technology. Um, you know, I think, um. And, and so, you know, I, I don't particularly have a view, I certainly wouldn't say, you know, small scale local regen farmers mustn't use any, you know, any modern technology that's, you know, that's not, that's not how this thing works. I don't know if it, you know, I don't see it necessarily as a, as a kind of liberatory technology. You know, I think a, a lot of these technologies that we use, know, they're partly u they're partly useful to us because everyone else is using them and, and you sort of disadvantage yourself if, you know, if, if, if you're not part of that. But they, you know, they do come with a price tag. You know, they do come with a. politics and a social structure associated with them, which are not, necessarily, or, or almost certainly not the politics and the social structure that I want to kind of create and, and prefigure. So I suppose I would say proceed with
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:And there's an environmental cost as well.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:I mean, you know, we, it, it, you know, it's, it's, you know, the energy cost when you turn on a tractor is very visible, whereas the energy cost when you are, you know, sat at your computer sort of crunching a load of data is, is not so visible. But, um, yeah, you know
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:That's part of the danger, right?'cause those, those, um, those costs have been so far externalized that they're very difficult to sort of comprehend, you know, on an instant human level.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:And, and, and layers and layers of, yeah. And, and you know, huge layers of, of sort of complex political interaction that's kind of in, embedded in, in, in all of the, the, the, you know, the information technology we use,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Mm-hmm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:you know, a a a bit like with the pandemic and the shelves suddenly emptying of, um, of, of fruit and veg. You know, I, we do need to build sort of resilience and redundancy loops into
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Mm-hmm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:I think. So. it's a bit like with, you know, my use of machinery here, you know, I, I use machinery to, to achieve farm tasks. Um, but you know, there are a lot of things we could do on our holding, um, without, and we would, you know, sort of get by more or less. Whereas, you know, larger scale mainstream farmers, you know, if the tractor's not there, then you know, they can't. They can't do the job, you know, and I suppose it might be worth thinking of it or AI in the same way.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah. really we need to be going back to local, local food systems, local communities and those resilient food systems. Um, but a lot of people are still sort of carrying that narrative of, of technology driven farming. How do we push back against that? How do we change the narrative and get more people talking about local food and local communities?
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Well, it's a, it's a good question. It's a, it's a difficult answer. I mean, I think, I mean, uh, you know, I guess one thing I, I try and argue in the, in the recent book, and it's kind of, Not that it's particularly original on my part, you know, ultimately I think this is, it's kind of about stories, you know, it's kind of about stories we tell ourselves about, sort of who we are and where we're going and, and you know, this is one of the. of the problems we have is that stories are very powerful and we can, I mean, humans are great. Uh, that's been one of the themes in my books. You know, humans are great at creating these symbolic systems like language, like money or economies or like religion, which can sort of fly in the face of material reality if we're not careful. So, know, I think we have to tell some different stories. You know, I I, I've spent a certain amount of time trying to debunk stuff with, you know, lots of spreadsheets and data analysis and sort of techy acade, you know, as an, as an ex-academic, you know, that's
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:what I'm drawn to. And, you know, I, I, there's a, there's certainly a role for that. Um. it doesn't really work. It doesn't really engage people, you know, PE
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Mm
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:know, pe not sort of how human minds work. We sort of want to latch onto a story. So,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:mm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:you know, I think the way to do it is by having good stories to tell about. Um, uh, about local food systems, about local community and, and, and connectedness. You know, the problem is that it's, you know, it's hard for those stories to seem plausible in the light of, um, you know, the larger economic system and, and the forces that obstruct, uh, people being able to, to, to, to generate good resilient local livelihoods. So, so, you know, I think we have to tell stories about, um, where we are sort of civilizationally and in our cul, you know, why, why those existing stories, um, are not serving us. Um, um, I mean, I suppose I try and do that in, in the new book with sort of multi led, um, stuff. But, um, yeah, it's not, it's not easy because, um, you know, it's hard to birth, um, a, a a, a new story about bottom up local community and food
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:a world, which is you, you know, which, which kind of frustrates that at every turn.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Mm. But something I've noticed is that a lot of the time, the stories that you tell and the way you tell stories, it's inherently hopeful. So why do you think it's important to frame those struggles and that, and that new way of thinking in a hopeful way?
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Well, I mean, I think, yeah, it's interesting'cause I guess, you know, a lot of my writing is very much caught in this duality of, of sort of optimism versus doom. As, as it's, and, and, you
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Mm-hmm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:dualities are always problematic. You know,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:And it's so easy to slip into that isn't it?
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:So, you know, I think this is one of the, you know, one of the things about the sort of tech optimism and it's, you know, it's understandable. It's like people are very invested in their modern, you know, we live very high tech, high energy, urban, modern lives. And so people want to have this hopeful story that, hey, you know, yeah, we've got problems. There's climate change. You know, there's, there's justice issues in the world, but, you know, we can solve these within the structures of our existing sort of high tech, high energy civilization. And, you know, I guess my view is that we can't, That's not, and, and, and so, you know, we, we, we will, we are entering crisis. I mean, you know, renewal always comes out of crisis. It always comes from the margin. So, you know, my position is it's easily sort of caricatured as, as, as sort of doom, you know, this old bloke saying, oh, you know, it's not gonna work. You know?
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:and that's
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:AI is gonna ruin everything. The robots are gonna kill us all. Yeah. Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:right. You know, so I think, you know, humans are inherently hopeful. You know, there there's a difference between a kind of false optimism, which is like, oh, you know, it'll be all right. You know, we'll figure out renewable energy or high tech farming and you know, you, you know, nothing to see here. Carry on doing
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Mm-hmm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:You know, I don't buy into that narrative. But, you know, there is inherently, there is, uh, humans are inherently hopeful and what we're good at is connecting with each other. that ultimately is, I suppose my story is that the, you know, it's there aren't technological solutions. There are human solutions, which are grounded in, in us finding, um, sophisticated ways of connecting with each other in the context of local EC colleges, local, you know, local, wild and local agrarian EEC colleges too. Um, to solve problems in, in sort of lower energy, lower tech ways locally that meet our needs. And, you know, what, what people ultimately, you know, we need food, we need shelter, we need connection with other people. You know, these are, are not things that necessarily have to be, you know, hugely high tech or hugely, um, energy demanding or hugely destructive of local EC colleges. You know, we can do this stuff together in the context of our local EC colleges. So that's, you know, that's where the hope is. But, you know, I I, I, I do think it requires, um, challenging this sort of notion that there are these sort of top down global solutions. We just need to do this, you know, we just need to produce food in this way, or energy in this way, you know, um, a lot of, a lot of those assumptions I think we have to let go of.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah, totally. so obviously we're speaking to you in England and we're in Australia. Um, and our countries are sort of very linked historically, but we find ourself in very different places now in terms of, um, how we run, uh, food production. Um, so Australia, you know, the, the colony of Australia was established with a mindset of, you know, becoming the, the bread basket of England, right? There was sort of this export, export mindset established really early on, and that's the way that Australian agriculture has, has grown. So we are very export minded and I know that. the UK you are heavily reliant on food imports. Um, and so how do we, I don't know. I wondered if you had any thoughts on some of the similarities and some of the differences between the Australian, UK contexts and maybe any lessons we can learn from each other.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:I mean, you know, that's basically the world has become increasingly dependent on, um, uh. A small number of bread basket areas of which, you know, Australia is, is, is one in terms of big sort of wheat production and some, you know, livestock production as well? Uh, yeah, I think we have to. And that, that sort of, again, that's a kind of, um, a result really of, of, of technological, um. Uh, you know, that that technological narrative, you know, emerged out of the Green Revolution in the sixties and sort of yielding serial varieties and, you know, with a lot of inputs of agrochemicals and, um, you know, we've built our civilization on globally on a very narrow base, really in that sense, you know, a very small number of global commodity crops using heavy, high energy inputs. Um, and yeah, I mean, you're right. I think to link that to the sort of colonial context in, in Britain, you know, Britain very much, um, uh, through its colonial extensions, sort of, um, uh, yeah, exported its need for food, um, to its colonial connections and then focused on sort of industrial development. And now you get. The narrative in Britain that, uh, you know, we can't really feed ourselves, you know, we can't have local, um, local agriculture. It wouldn't work. And, and you know, that's globalized into the sense that sort of small scale local food systems can't feed the world, which in my view is untrue. You know, it's not that these systems, um, can't produce enough food on a per acre basis. Uh, you know, the, the problem with them from a modern point of view is that they require a lot more people working the land. And, you know, that's, that's not the narrative that, you know, that again, the story we have is of people leaving the land, moving to the city, you know, being more prosperous and all of that. Um, and that, you know, that's the story that is, you know, of has some truth. But, but, but it is only. of the truth, you know? And, and, and you know, part of the reality is that people have, have resisted being re removed from the land. Um, you know, I think we need to, um, we do need to change those narrative. And, and you know, you also get that narrative in the UK that while only only 1% of the population is involved in farming, and that's largely because we've kind of exported the, the, the need to produce a lot of our food.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah, I, um, I heard a, a statistic a few years ago, I'm not sure if it's still true, but I heard that the only crop that Britain is self-sufficient in is green peas
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:I.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:and everything else needs to be imported. I thought that was pretty interesting.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Right. And our, um, our, our main export, our main food export is whiskey. So, yeah. Yeah, I mean, we don't do a bad job in the UK of producing, um, that, that, you know, cereal crops. Um, but the, the, the main thing that we import is anything that is kind of labor intensive because, you know, in rich countries, um, labor is relatively dear. Fossil fuels are, are, are cheap. Um, so anything that you can sort of mechanize, um, you know, you can do to some extent. Um, but anything that requires human labor, so the fruit and the vegetables and so on, you know, we import that leads to all sorts of food system problems. You
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:too much of the, of of the, the, the, the cereals and the grain legumes, not enough fresh fruit and vegetables. You know, there's a whole bunch of economic issues around that in terms of the affordability of, of of, of sort of healthy whole foods and so on. we really need to change, you know, we, we, we need a sort of complete change of this. Um. of, of this way of thinking, you know, we need to, uh, have much more, uh, equitable access to, to healthy whole foods. They need to be grown locally, that needs more labor, uh, and so on and so on. Um, and you know, of course in the Australian context, it, you know, we, that brings us into conversations about, um, sort of land theft. It's sort of indigenous food systems and so on, which I, which I touch on, um, in the book and sort of. You know, again, there's that, that's the sort of interesting aspect of this where there's a kind of narrative of, of indigenous food systems as being sort of great for indigenous people. But, um, you know, but thinking of that as a sort of tho you know, those people are a kind of minority of the global population that, you know, that can't be a model for all of us, but you know. Part of my argument in the book is that we have to learn to become more native to our places, more, more indigenous to place. And, and you know, that raises a whole bunch of practical and political issues, which, which I kind of get into a little, a little bit in the book. Um,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:But yeah, we need to stop sort of exporting our needs for basic livelihood to other people who we don't, you know, we dunno who they are, where they are. We dunno what labor conditions, you know, we are sort of, um, you know, there's a kind of cheap food narrative, um, is really problematic. And, you know, we need to take more responsibility, not just for food, but for all aspects of, of, you know, how we create a livelihood. We need to hold that closer to us and reward the people, you know, if we're not doing it ourselves, we need to reward the people, uh, that we are doing it
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:And, and to be sort of conscious of all of those linkages.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:So you've spoken a little bit about becoming indigenous to place and becoming more native to your landscape. I wondered if you could talk a little bit about what that might look like in, in an English context, but also in Australian context.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Yeah, I mean in the, I I talk about It a bit in the book. I mean the, the context in the UK is, for example, the rewilding debate where, you know, there in Wales particularly, you know, there, you know, I think there's sort of wide agreement that there's too many sheep in the Welsh uplands that are. destructive. Uh, and that's going back to the stuff we were talking about, about, you know, being pushed into producing, you know, the, the sort of food commodities that, know, you can most easily produce in any given place. But, you know, the whole rewilding debate has just become really toxic in Wales because it's sort of, uh, you know, the, the, the farming areas tend to be Welsh speaking areas with a sense of a sort of long indigenous tradition. And the, the sense of rewilding is just these English sort of environmentalists coming in, saying, right, you know, you need to stop producing sheep and we can let the land just grow wild. And, you know, that'll, that'll be better. I mean, I, yeah, I, I, in an Australian context, I mean, I do draw, I, I've, you know, I've read some of Tyson Young Porter's, uh, stuff. I dunno if you know his writing,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah. Yep.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:which I found really thought provoking and sort of, I guess. I, I, you know, it, it's hard for me to speak for a, a, a, a context like Australia that I, I, I, I don't really know, but I, I suppose it's, um, the, you know, part of it is about sort of livelihood strategies, you know, if you look to indigenous traditions that, that, that, you know, that were very keyed to local EC colleges, you know, we need to learn from that. And then there's a sort of separate capital I indigenous people who are not necessarily living an indigenous lifestyle. You know, there's an issue of basically racism and, and sort of political, um, you know, political entitlement. But, so I suppose, you know, there's a, um, know, to some extent the issue, it, it comes back to the access to land issues, you know, of indigenous nations, you know, being, you know, being a nation that, you know, um. You know, it, it's who has rights to the land and, and, and, and you know, who, who gets admitted into that community. And that,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:know, that I think is all gonna change in the future as, as, as you know, these various crises come to bite. So, I mean, I do talk about that a little bit in, in the book and, but that, again, it's one of those things that's gonna be thrashed out where potentially, you know, I think we're, look, you know, the, the danger is another period of settler colonialism where people leave the cities and kind of just appropriate, you know,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:that, you know, there's a lot of land sort of that's in indigenous hands because it hasn't yet been appropriated, you know,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Hmm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:and, and that could change in the future. So, um, so I think it has to be about, um, know, developing, um, political rights, you know, developing that, you know, having those, having that sort of, um. Access to land debate. I mean, that's, I'm, I'm,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Mm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:vague, but, um, you know, um, um, but that's kind of my initial
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:dunno, I mean, do you
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:No, that's great. Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:out in an Australian context?
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Oh, yeah. I mean, you could fill many, many books with, uh, the way that, that might play out in Australian context, but I think it comes back to what you, what you say about, you know, those place-based solutions and how every community's gonna come up with their own, with their own kind of way of doing things. And I think that's probably especially true in a, in a context like Australia, where in addition to, you know, thinking about food production and thinking about local economies. You do also have to be thinking about the fact that we're doing this on stolen land,
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:mm.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:and how do we, how do we reconcile that without, you know, without appropriating further or, or causing more damage?
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that I want to avoid is, uh, you know, I mean I've, I've sort of had these arguments with George Monio in my previous book and the sort of whole land sparing argument, which is kind of like, you know, let's have like really high tech agriculture on a smaller land footprint as possible. And then, you know, um, you know, the rest of the land can be available. I mean, he talks in that book, you know, in, in, in his book that I'm critiquing about, you know, that will allow indigenous people to sort of, you know, have, have more access to land. And I don't think we can sort of separate it out in that way and that, you know. The idea of becoming indigenous to place, you know, can sound a bit of a sort of cultural appropriation, I would imagine, in a sort of Australian or a settler colonial context. But, you know, I think it's important. I think people have to be grounded, um, sort of, you know, within a local ecology and obviously somewhere like Australia, the model to look, you know, it's, it's not that all the past models are always necessarily gonna be relevant in every way to the future, but it would be sort of indigenous Australians sort of learn from in that context. But then obviously how you navigate the contemporary political relationships around that is very complicated. Um, and, you know, uh, you say it, it, it's, you know, it's not something that, you know, that I can sort of it, you know, it's, it's grounded in, in, in local political relationships. But, but I guess there's sort of, um. There's almost been this inversion, you know, where. a position of colonial scorn for indigenous lifeways, you know, nowadays they can be put on a bit of a pedestal, but not really taken seriously in the sense of, well, you know, that's great for indigenous people to do that, but you know, the rest of us, you know, we have to carry on with our sort of high tech, high energy, you know, destructive forms of
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:And I think the real lesson of indigenous systems, you know, is much, goes much deeper than that and, you know, is, has to be taken as a critique of those ultimately quite colonial forms and, quite ecologically destructive forms of, of, of sort
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Mm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:modern high tech agriculture. So, yeah, it's a good question and I do talk about it in the new book a bit, but, um,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Mm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:I mean, as you say, it could fill many books. I probably need to think about it some more.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:another point that I wanted to ask you about, which is talking about how we can, um, land share, how we can get things. So we are working, um, with Aafsa at the moment on setting up an agrarian trust. Um, and we also have quite a strong network of people farming on other people's land called Ling. Um, so I just wondered yeah, if you had any experiences with, um, setting up agricultural land in trusts or land sharing and, and how we can, how we can encourage more people and give pe more people access to come back to the land to be growing.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Yeah. I mean, access to land is really critical and, you know, I've touched on that in different ways in, in, in all of my books. And, and again, part of the sort of tech narrative, it's almost a way of avoiding talking about the politics of access to land. It's like, hey, you know, if we can produce, uh, more food on a smaller land area with these high tech. Means, and then we can feed everybody and then we don't really have to talk about, um, uh, um, kind of distribution of, of wealth and access to land. But we do have to talk about that. Um, and, and, and, you know, that's complicated and, and I, I, I do touch on it. I mean, I've, know, the land I'm on. Owned by my wife and me, but we've tried to, it's, you know, it's just a small acreage on the edge of town and we've tried, um, in various ways to, um, interact with the wider community and bring people onto it. Um. And that. Yeah. Um, which, you know, has, has, had our sort of, um, successes and failures and mistakes with that, that, that's been kind of an interesting thing. been part of, uh, a group here in the UK called the Ecological Land Co-Op, which raises community finance, buys land, and then, um, uh, sort of gets people onto the land as, as farmers and growers, but in a way that keeps the land. It, it, it, it sort of de commodifies it, it stops people from just, just kind of, you know, being able to sell it on the open market at sort of, um, you know, speculative prices. I think it's a really interesting issue in that. Um, I mean, I talk about it in, in the recent book amongst others. I, I think we sometimes have a sort of slightly, um, simplistic, uh, view about shared land. I mean, there's, you know, there's a whole history of agricultural commons versus household production, and I think When people try and share. Production, um, in uh, sort of, particularly in modern situations where we're not sort of familiar with agrarian societies, it can all tend to sort of fall apart in kind of, um, arguments and recriminations and sort of power dynamics and so on. And, you know, if you look at,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:you look at sort of historic small scale agrarian societies, they were often very, very careful about. How they n navigated sort of individual household production set within wider commons. And the, the commons
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:things which you can't, you know, you can't really manage sort of watershed management say, or um, woodland management or, um, you know, sort of larger aspects of the landscape like that have to be managed collectively. But you have to come up with those collective agreements very, very carefully. And, you know, we're not
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah,
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:practiced at that in, in modern societies. So in some ways my argument is. Um, know, start with yourself, start with your household. You know, start in terms of small gardens, allotments, you know, things that, uh, but obviously those are collective agreements in, you know, private property ultimately
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:agreement. It's like, you know, the society saying, uh, you know, you, you know, you, you particular people can have access to that particular bit of land. Obviously the way that those agreements get made isn't necessarily fair or equal. So, you know, we do need to keep coming back to this. You know, who gets to choose, you know, who gets to determine rights to access to land? It, that has to be fair. It has to include, um, you know, everybody more widely in the community. But I think, you know, we need, I think we need to not have sort of some. know, when we talk about sort of bottom up or local community production, we have to be thoughtful about that and not just sort of say right there, there you go, community, there's some land, you know, get growing. You know?
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Um, so there's, yeah, there's a lot of complexity wrapped up in all that. And, you know, you can't sort of write it all down in a book or a, or a manifesto, you know? It has to be sort of figured out, painstakingly on the ground. But, but you know, the problem we
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah. And every situation will be different as well, right? Like it's not a one size fits all situation.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:the whole point, you know, I mean, that's the sort of irony of writing a sort of big global book about localism, you know, is, you can't, you know, you, you, you cannot specify what, what it has to be, you know, because of the nature of what localism is. But, you know, the, I guess the issue is to draw attention to it because we're not doing a great job of, of thinking, you know, even in that, in those terms, um, you know, in, in, in sort of contemporary culture. So, you know, we need to sort
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:yeah. Well, even when we think about land ownership, that's, you know, that's a relatively recent, uh, kind of idea, um, for a lot of, a lot of cultures, right. You know, in terms of. Indigenous Australians,
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Yeah,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:weren't an owner of land, you were a custodian of land. There's a, there's a very different relationship to land and I think as you say, you know, there's a lot that we can be learning, um, and putting into the theories that we, that we take into our communities.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Yeah. I mean, land ownership is an interesting, you know, the, in some ways it's, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the concept of private land that we have tended to bring into sort of modern capitalist civilization kind of draws from Roman law in some ways. But it's a very, very
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Hmm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:it's a very kind of, um, extreme version of private ownership, which, you know, I mean, I would sort of, the soundbite would be that it, it's exclusive as in get off my land, you know, and it's abusive in the sense of, you know, it's my land and I can do whatever I like with it. Um, so, you know,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:the kind of extreme version of private property that, that, you know, that we have sort of inflicted on the world. we, I think it's important to have. Private appropriation rights, you know, as in, you know, as in you this, this household or this small group of people, you know, you take responsibility for this bit of land and, and, you know, you are entitled to, you know, to have the use of front of it to sort of get the, you know, to get the produce of it. But that is set within a whole bunch of wider agreements about, you know, other people, you know, can have some, um, some rights of access or, you know, what you, what you can and can't do on the land that affects other people, you know? So, um, yeah,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:to get rid of that, that very sort of, um, you know, extremist version of private property for sure.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah, because I know that at the moment in the UK the uh, the right to Rome has been, um, sort of, there's a campaign around that at the moment, and, and, and that right is sort of slowly being eroded by people with those really exclusionary ideas of land rights. So I wondered if you had any thoughts on that.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Yeah. Well, I have sort of got a little bit involved in those debates. I mean, the right to roam is, um, yeah, it, it's, it's important, um, uh, as you say, in terms of challenging aspects of that very exclusive form of property. I mean, I, I have slight misgivings about it in the sense that, you know, roaming is, is very nice. You know, I mean, I like to um, I like to roam myself and go for a nice walk, but really we need to be talking about food production. And, you know, there is a kind of. There's quite a negative, um, representation of farmers, which, you know, not always unjustified, but it's, it's sort of like, you know, I want to be able to roam on farmland and not really take an interest in, you know, the, you know, what the farmer is doing, what difficulties they're experiencing, you know, the, the, the, the whole bunch of issues around production. You know, farmers the UK worldwide really have. Been asked to essentially stand on their own feet as business people and, and produce huge quantities of cheap food. And then we also sort of complain, know, if they're not great environmental stewards of the land or, you know, or, or, or kind of, uh, you know, are, are a bit snotty about people being on their land and, you know, you can't do all of these, you know, we, we, you know, we can't expect farmers to do all of these things for us. And, you know, so, I think, you know, the, the, the, the, um. That debate about rights? Uh, you know, I think it's good in as much as it draws people into valuing, um, you know, the, the, countryside, the ecology. But we need to draw people into food production as well and into, um, you know, understanding. You know, it's not just a recreational thing where we kind of roam about, you know, we need to understand, um, how, um, the, the, the ecology, the wider ecology is, um, uh, you know, provides us with the food and the other, the fibers that we need and, and sort of be part of that story as well. Um, but yeah, you
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah, so maybe it, it's a right to roam, but there's also a responsibility involved in that as well. Right. So you've got the rights, but then what are your responsibilities as someone passing through that land or roaming on that land?
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:know, there are huge issues in, in most, you know, land access to land or land ownership is very
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Hmm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:most countries. Uh, I mean, I've been in the Scottish Highlands recently, which is, you know, really pushing, um, for, um, access and sort of right to Rome, type stuff
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Hmm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:in England, but also has an incredibly unequal land ownership and, you know, a lot of the sort of global wealthy owning sort of grouse and deer stalking estates and so on, you know? Um, and so, yeah, you know, this is one of the difficulties with the, the way that the. The, the food and land economy works now is that it's very difficult for people to make a, make any income, um, actually producing the basic food that is needed. And, you know, if you talk to farmers, it's almost always, you know, sort of hunting or fishing rights or, you know, a campsite or bed and, you know, any, anything other
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:producing food is what, you know, it's almost like farming is the hobby that you subsidize by, by doing, you know, something else, essentially. Sort of tourism really, you know? And so we
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Mm-hmm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:um, you know, that is something we need to work on.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.'cause farming can't just be a side hustle. That's how we end up with a very hungry world.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:right. Yeah. And, you know, sort of bad farming practices that, um, you know, use Agrochemicals or other, or, you know, high energy shortcuts really to, to produce food. Yeah.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Um, so I wondered how much has changed on your farm since you sort of came from academia, did the hands-on learning, and now you're moving back into writing and, and, uh, and moving through the world in that way. How, how has your politics and your writing informed your farming, and how has your farming informed your politics and your writing?
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Wow. Yeah, big questions. Um, mean, I suppose what's happened on the farm, you know, when we bought it, it was a big sweep of grass that was used by a dairy farmer, um, uh, as a kind of outfield for, um, you know, for, for dry cows and heifers. we've, I mean, I don't like to make great claims about, you know, how I've sort of got this great pioneering system of farming that's solved all the world's problems, you know, because, because I haven't, you know, but I guess what we, you know, what we have done is diversified it. So we've got, um, a lot of trees, um, you know, both fruit and nut trees and sort of forest trees. Um, kept a little bit of grazing livestock, but we've, you know, we, we also produce, um, uh, uh, fruit, well mostly vegetables, more than fruit on a commercial basis. Um, We've, uh, a lot of it is a lot wilder. You know, we've got a lot more insect and bird life and, um, and you know, and, um, yeah, some wild spaces on the land. We've also brought people onto the land in various ways. Um, uh, I mean we've, for example, we've got a little forest school. Um, uh, it's not something that I do, but with forest school teachers that we know sort of have got, um, uh, have got a base on the land where they bring, um, sort of kids and other people from the community onto the land. So, so, you know, you
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Very.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:land, land sharing earlier, so I think that's the essence of it, is, you know, making it productive in some way, um, making it diverse. Um, and, and I think generally, you know, the. modern economy and the, the high energy, fossil fuel based model economy has, has modern economy, has sort of separated a lot of that stuff out. You know, we sort of tend to have forestry in Britain, you know, in in, in the sort of, um, upland remote, uh, mountain areas. And then, you know, we've got very concentrated arable farming don't really produce very, very much fruit and veg at all. And ultimately we need to, you know, in a lower energy economy, we need to bring those things together. You know, I wouldn't say that our places, you know, as we were talking earlier, every place, every person is different. It's not like we've sort of got some exemplary system here, but, um, but that's what we've tried to do. Um, and you know, when you look at most parts of the world historically do have a, a, a kind of mixed farming systems that sort of integrate trees, grass, um. and, and, and livestock. Um, you know, that that kind of lends itself, you know, when, when you don't have access to a lot of cheap energy, you have to sort of develop integrated ecological systems. So, you know, I wouldn't say we've, you know, we've done that within the, the constraints of the sort of existing economy we, we find ourselves in. But, you know, I think it's, it's good to, to experiment, uh, with that. I mean, permaculture is a good Australian export
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:world. You know, there's a lot of thinking within that that I think, you know, we, that can be learned from. Um, yeah. So that's, um, yeah, that would be it in a nutshell.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Do you think you still get enough time with your hands in the soil getting dirt under your fingernails, or are you busier writing books these days?
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:no, I don't really, and that's, you know, that's something I'm hoping to change. I mean, you, and again, you know, all sorts of levels, I think the modern world sort of pushes us to specialize. And it particularly pushes us
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:you know, talking words, sort of symbolic, sort of, um, professions. So, um, you know, for about five, six years I was a full-time, more than full-time veg grower and, you know, delivering veg in town. I mean, I'm getting a, I'm getting a bit older now, so I, to be honest, I'm quite happy we've got younger people, uh, you know, with a bit more, uh. A bit more muscle and a bit more energy than I now have doing that. And, and you know, that's another key thing
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:you know, sort of figuring that out. Um, but yeah, you know, the modern world is too specialized and that's true, you know, agriculturally, you know, like every region is, there's a kind of global race to the bottom where every region is sort of pushed to produce, you know, the one or handful of crops that it can sort of
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:sell into the sort of global market. And so.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Mm-hmm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:If you look at, if you look at historic maps here in Britain, like more or less every town used to have small market gardens producing vegetables.'cause you know, they're, they're sort of heavy, bulky to transport. Um, and so it made sense to grow them locally. And, you know, a market gardener was, you know, there was loads of people, you know, it was a sort of standard job in the, in the agriculture horticulture sector. Whereas now there's very few, you know, with, with sort of cheap, cheap, abundant modern energy and globalized food systems. We don't have that.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah. And refrigerated trucks. And refrigerated warehouses, and yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:need to diversify ourselves and our, our systems. So, so yeah, I'm not looking to get back into, um, commercial growing, but, you know, we are trying to find ways and models to keep producing, um, food to, to sell to people locally. Um, but I do want to, yeah, do some more, um, uh, you know, a bit more, a bit more growing, um, myself and, and sort of, um, keep a more diverse portfolio. I think, uh, I, I think that, know, the, the, the, you know, you do need the, the, the, the production to, to inform the, the sort of wider thinking for sure.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Definitely. Um, so we've spoken a bit about how, um. Taking sort of community control of our food systems and how every community's gonna look different and those decisions are gonna look different everywhere. Um, but I wondered if you could give us a sense of how people might start to make those decisions in their own communities. So there's some steps that you would encourage people to take to start to localize their food economies.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Um, I mean, I think first of all, take an interest in, um, in, in food and in local food. You know, we, we sort of tend to rely very much on, you know, the supermarkets, you know, the big sort
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:so, you know. Start being curious. Start asking questions about where food is coming from and you know, what's gonna happen if there are disruptions or shocks to that supply chain. you know,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:the, um, you know, the pandemic was sort of a big issue here when suddenly the supermarkets kind of ran out of fresh fruit and veg and, you know, our little market garden suddenly started getting loads of new customer queries. So, you
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:things like that are an opportunity. think also, yeah, asking questions about access to land and, um, I mean, I, you. I, I think the situation here is probably similar in a lot of countries, a lot of the wealthier countries where, um, you know, there's enormous pressure If you live in a, in a city or a small town, there's enormous pressure for sort of zoning restrictions and pressure on, um, land green, green spaces within towns. You know, there's the pressure for it to be turned over to residential development. Um, and, and for the sort of land surrounding towns, you know, you sort of tend to get development creep and, and, and, you know, a lot of, obviously a lot of people have an interest in edge of town, um, development and, and the sort of, the big money tends to, you know, people who command the biggest money tend to get the biggest say in what happens to that land. So I think, you know, starting to push back against that and saying, no, you know, we need green spaces part. You know, just for, you know, you were talking about right to Rome earlier, people need green
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:you know, just to, just to be in green space. Just to be in nature. But we also need to start thinking about them, you know, not just as a load of ornamental flowers and bedding plants, but as places that actually are starting to produce food, but also taking an interest in surroundings. You know, starting to think of ourselves as, you know, as people throughout history have had to, you know, you can't just import food, um, uh, sort of endlessly on the basis of cheap energy and big supply chains. You have to start thinking about the place that you live as, as a productive place. So that means starting to get into the politics of. Local access to land and, you know, trying to, um, you know, trying to, um, ring fence it ultimately, um, to, um, to, to produce food. I mean, there's a sort of irony, you know, here in Britain there was the green belt, um, the idea of green belts that came
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:20th century. And the id, the original idea of that is that we can't have big cities like London or Birmingham just endlessly expanding, and we need to create green belts around towns that are, um, then make it possible to farm them and produce food, um, for the town. And that idea has almost been inverted. And it's like, oh, you know, you can't have any people building a farmhouse. You know, we've, we've gotta just sort of preserve this as, as, as, um, you know, as existing sort of industrial farmland or
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:As recreational land. And, and, you know, people need to be in the landscape. We need to have small scale producers sort of living and working the land. And so having those, you know, just getting, going with those kind of debates, you know, how we turn the surroundings into flourishing but ecologically diverse landscape with, um, production for local needs for food and fiber and how we sort of people that landscape and, and sort of have it as, as a sort of living, working landscape with, small and medium scale farmers. You know, being able to sort of be in that landscape and, and sort of being part of the, you know, farmers are very much sort of not really, uh, integrated. Uh, and, and I'm not saying this is a criticism of them, you know, it's the way that, um, that, that, that, that the sort of wider social structures have moved. But, you know, we need to sort of hold tight to our farmers and to, to value what they do and to be part of, you know. Part of that sort of food production narrative and, and to make our, our, our local ag agricultural and ecological spaces, you know, integrated around our needs for food and fiber, which means that we, you know, possibly we can't necessarily get everything we want at the kind of prices that we are used to in the supermarkets, you know, but it's that, it's starting that conversation. I mean, we're, it's, we're at a very low base. You know, we, you know, we, we've got a lot to do and not much time to do it, in my opinion. But that's
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:yeah,
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:where we need to start. I think.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:yeah. Start by being curious. That's great. Uh, so we don't have an awful lot more time, but I thought finally, could you tell us a little bit about your upcoming book? Um, and how is it different to your, to your first two books? What are you, what are you telling us in this one?
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Right. Well, it, it's called Finding, um, uh, lights in a Dark Age sharing, um, land, uh, uh, work. And Oh, my, I, you've put me on the spot there, I've actually forgotten
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Hmm.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Um, but yeah, it's kind of similar in some ways to the, to, to my small farm future book that, um, um. Makes the sort of case we've been talking about. It's, it's not so focused on farming. Um, as such, it's sort of a wider argument about society will, um, you know, the, the shape that society will take in in the future. Um, it, you know, it, we, I was, I was talking earlier about the, um. That, that sort of doom versus optimist sort of duality. So it's kind of, you know, a, a lot of my previous writing has been looking at stuff like climate change, energy futures, water, and getting into all these sort of techy arguments about, you know, what that looks like. I've kind of. Put that aside in this book. I'm like, you know, we are definitely heading into, into a period of crisis, into periods when, politics and, and some of the sort of economic systems that we're accustomed to are breaking down. So how do we deal with that? You know, how do we come together? How, how do we sort of see our way through the dark age that to come? And I kind of play with the Dark Age idea in the sense that, know, what's come down to us about previous dark ages in history is that, oh, you know, they were terrible. You know, civilization fell apart. But for a lot of ordinary people, they were actually, um, pretty good time. You know, because the, the, the, you know, when the Romans left, um, left, left Britain, um, you know, the evidence seems to suggest that nutrition was better. You know, people were better off and healthier because they weren't being essentially screwed by a predatory colonial elite, you know? And so, you know, we're. are not quite in that situation in the modern world because we've become so dependent on these big sort of global supply chains. Um, I think we need to sort of channel some of that thinking that, you know, um, what do we do? How do we come together, um, when the sort of big centralized systems that we've become used to, um, stop delivering service to us. So that's, that's kind of the, the essence of the book, you know, and, and as I say, you know, I don't sort of come up with a, a manifesto, a blueprint, you know, follow Chris's, um, you know, sort of three step program and you'll be fine.'cause that's, that's not how this works. But, you know,
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Yeah.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:hopefully, I'm sort of, sort of mapping some of that ground that then, um, will, will be helpful to people to sort of, you know. Figure out those answers for themselves in, in, in the sort of, you know, contextual local ways that, um, you know, you know, develop those kind of conversations and those kind of stories that we've been talking about in, in this, um, in, in, in this conversation.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Amazing. So, uh, that one is finding lights in a dark age, sharing land, work, and craft.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:Thank you.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Thank you very much for joining us today, Chris. It's been a wonderful chatting with you.
chris_1_07-21-2025_080241:thanks very much. Yeah. It's been nice to chat with you.
lucy-ridge--she-her-_1_07-21-2025_170241:Thank you for joining us on the Agroecology Radio Hour. If you'd like to support FAFSA's work, please head to our website afsa.org where you can become a member or follow the Australian Food Sovereignty Alliance on social media. You can also sign up as a subscriber to this podcast on buy me a coffee.com, and contact us via our email address Australian food dot sovereignty@gmail.com. Special thanks to our guest, Chris m and our producer Ivan Blackett. We'll put the links to Chris's website and books in the show notes so you can learn more about his work. And of course, please share this podcast with your networks to help grow the food Sovereignty movement in Australia, the UK and beyond. Viva.